Tagged: Signed Waivers
June 5, 2020 at 2:41 PM #8936
@ Jana Pivkova I think you should read what, “John Benario” had to say,(again): — “The page mentions that because of two pilot to pilot lawsuits the RRG is going to run a loss this year, and warns of long term viability because of suits like these. One of the suits being about” “a collision between a kiting glider and a glider coming in to land.
We are not disagreeing on this topic. All of us are advocating for safety and mutual respect. We all want to be able to land safely, wherever that may have to be. That means talking to people who seem not to know any better, and asking them politely to get away from an active landing area. Next time you’re sitting at the LZ watching people kite and you see a problem brewing, please get up and nicely go remind the pilot on the ground to clear the runway. We all need to pitch in to keep everyone safe & happy.
Jana wrote:“Do we then fine hang gliders who can’t land in their own part of the field? Or just paragliders kiting their wing too close to the line”? Seriously? You Really said that?? You honestly think that kiting a PG is more important, than a pilot attempting to Land their glider,(PG or HG)?? Before you answer; re-read what John Benario had to say, above. Do Ya get it now? Because i believe the usage permit that CSS has for their club members ability to fly; i think it’s contingent upon an insurance policy, being in place? What are ya gonna do, when it’s gone? Or maybe you haven’t thought it? If something isn’t done promptly; it is an accident waiting to happen, and another lawsuit, just waiting to take the RRG under. I already have a plan in place, if that happens, and i’m still gonna get to soar gliders legally; what are you going to do?
I believe it was you who began talking about drawing lines onto the grass, fining people and calling the cops for crossing lines. I was merely pointing out the fact that your suggestion was unrealistic and ineffective. I think it’s obvious to most people who read my post, that I ask everyone to keep an eye out and respect each other’s space, especially pilots who are landing. Doesn’t matter what you’re flying.
We need and welcome the newbies, their presence will keep the club going for years to come, but that means there’s a potential element of danger. We can mitigate that danger by working together to educate those who (for whatever reason) missed that part of the lesson. None of us want more incidents or accidents, which means we need everyone to be proactive when we see a potential problem developing.June 5, 2020 at 4:36 PM #8938
Really Nice, and well thought-out response , (Jana) ; i’m beginning
to think , your a rather intelligent person !!
I also agree with everything you just said.
BilleJune 6, 2020 at 9:58 AM #8949Mark HoffmannGeneral Member
During the CSS elections vote a few months ago there is a data field for questions… I asked the question of who is responsible if a HG or PG pilot landing their aircraft fly’s into a person or pilot in the LZ… I asked since there seems to be more and more LZ activity including the HG schools gator and T-Hill students…The question was never answered by any board member or even the New Prez 🙂
I thought ALL members signed a release???? Which by the way i do not recall that portion of my latest member renewal that i performed last week…… So I guess I asked a question that i already should have know the answer to since i did sign the waivers…..
Q: Are there new guide lines now with the RRG that void members waivers????
Q: why would the RRG become involved since all members should have signed the waivers?June 6, 2020 at 10:34 AM #8952David WebbGeneral Member
I don’t think there’s a tidy black and white answer for that one. I can’t speak for the whole board, but it seems to me that each situation has to be treated individually, instead of saying that the person on the ground or the person landing is the one at fault. What if a pilot was not in control and plowed into someone packing up their HG in the breakdown area? What if a PG kiting moved into the HG area while a pilot was on final and the HG had to divert and crashed? There’s definitely nuance there.
You’re definitely correct that we all signed the waiver, but it’s clear that some honest and productive discussion is needed to foster a culture of safety at the club. Let’s work to figure out if the answer is new rules, better communication among all of us, or some combination of the two.
For your renewal this year – there was a popup with the waiver that you had to accept in order to buy your membership (just like the old paper method). It comes up when you click the sign up button. The text of that waiver can also be found in the club library here.June 6, 2020 at 5:39 PM #8960Jonathan DietchGeneral Member
I will take an educated guess at addressing your questions.
“I asked the question of who is responsible if a HG or PG pilot landing their aircraft fly’s into a person or pilot in the LZ….I thought ALL members signed a release????”
Either one or both party may be considered responsible for an LZ collision. Depending on who did what, it’s possible the one party may trigger the liability coverage exclusion and could be held personally liable for any personal injury to the other party. Our liability policy is filled with exclusions that may render it void. Pilots need to understand that they are in fact personally liable for any consequence of any dumb shit that they do and then maybe if they’re lucky the RRRG won’t hang them out to dry and leave them holding their schmucks or other organ grabbed by the POTUS.
“Q: Are there new guide lines now with the RRG that void members waivers????”
AFAIK member waivers may be voided by a civil court or by prior suspension/expulsion from USHPA or failure to renew since there is no grace period with retroactive benefits like I get with my auto insurance.
“Q: why would the RRG become involved since all members should have signed the waivers?”
Waivers may be ignored or voided by the courts and so RRRG must step in to see that the courts honor both the waivers and the Doctrine of Assumption of Risk. Otherwise it becomes open season for Personal Injury Attorneys and whining pilots or aggrieved individuals to raid our insurance piggybank.
In case pilots have forgotten, we have an even more serious situation on launch where certain pilots, regardless of what type of vehicle they are flying consider the space in front of and top of both ramps on both Marshall and Crestline to be very own their personal playpen and well, “Fuck everybody else!” These pilots need to stop this shit yesterday or be dealt with harshly for being the next cause of loss of our liability insurance and therefore many flying sites and maybe the loss of your use of your limbs. Don’t be nice with these infantile assholes. None of the habitual offenders deserves to be treated as anything less than a threat to our flying sites and our personal safety. Keep a camera mounted above your keel to record activity above and below your glider for documentation. Smart road cyclists and bikers do this every time they ride along with smart motorists who use dashcams. I was done using cameras until this past Sunday when I got the “Fuck you!” treatment by at least two different offenders on Crestline.
My 2p Worth,
JDJune 6, 2020 at 9:38 PM #8961
Jana has some very thoughtful solutions, and her methods are definitely in the best interests of the long term survival of the club’s facilities. However, regardless of how well intentioned her proposals are, the cause of all this conversation is improper kiting. Kiting is a great resource for learning PG. I have taken PG lessons. I wish I could have stayed in a nice breeze learning when I learned to HG in 1985 in the valley of Lookout Mountain in August at 95 degrees and 100% humidity while I was carrying my Seagull 3 glider repeatedly up the training hill.
Covering 50% of the landing field with kiting gliders is not safe. Kiting at the landing cones with pilots on final is not safe. Cutting off two T2s while landing at the base of the training hill and then standing there kiting at the base of the training hill when those two gliders are seconds away from landing is not safe.
There needs to be common sense and safety mindedness for all this. Anyone with common sense would read the above paragraph and agree that none of those situations is safe, yet they all happened in the span of a couple weeks.
For beginners, it is all based on the instructor. If the instructor preaches and demands safe operations, the student will learn safe practices. If the instructor allows the student to ignore safe practices, then bad things happen. If it is OK to ignore the kiting rules, then it is probably ok to ignore the rules about beginner PG pilots launching at Crestline, etc. (that happened 6 weeks ago) For visiting pilots, David’s suggestion of large directive maps at the field will help.
Mostly, if all of our club member follow safe practices, then there will be many people to nudge non-safe visiting pilots in the direction of safe operations.
Relative to Jonathon’s post, I have experienced pilots at Crestline launch deciding they like being there. I do the safe thing. I go somewhere else. However, as Jonathon points out, the launch windows should be kept open as courtesy to other pilots. One’s safe launch should not be hindered by others in the immediate area.
Safety is foremost in all forms of aviation. Since our form of aviation is unregulated, we need to be even more safety conscious than say, my job as a Southwest 737 pilot. At work I have the company and FAA on my back to be safe. At Crestline I only have myself…June 6, 2020 at 10:14 PM #8962Jonathan DietchGeneral Member
“At Crestline I only have myself…”
You have the rest of the club as long we can rally peer support. It’s amazing what changes can take place when peers get together and apply peer pressure to those who refuse to share the ramps, LZs and sky. Once again I want to make it clear this is NOT a PG vs HG thing by any stretch. This is a selfish, self-centered, inconsiderate, thoughtless and discourteous pilot versus the group-safety minded pilots. Safety and cooperation aren’t merely each individual’s responsibility–they are every pilot’s collective responsibility. But if pilots don’t stand together and stand up for one another then thing go to the biz.
Okay that’s thruppence.
JDJune 7, 2020 at 9:28 AM #8966Michael MeadowsGeneral Member
What’s the big aversion to using the FM radio? Why not make it mandatory for any party in the LZ/kiting zones to carry and monitor the AJX freq during flight operations. Additionally, for the pilots that are airborne sweating nails, why not announce “inbound from the 350” or the “pond” or “overhead” etc… to alert people who may be using the kiting area. Why am I sensing this has been submitted before and forever put to bed as a cockamamy stupid idea? We have a FM station frequency that’s underutilized, handheld FM radios are cheap as, and it should be brought up in the conversation…just saying.
mikeJune 7, 2020 at 9:31 AM #8967
At one time we had traffic cones + with signs ( “<—No Kiting / Kiting —-> “) that we would put in a line along the SW LZ area. Those signs may still be in the shade container . Someone just needs to put them out and then put them away. Or , just leave em out.
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