Do we really want the figure 8’s as depicted?  Shouldn’t the PG’s be doing a nice smooth DBF as well?  I have seen a dusty take out a PG low in the area described in the diagram (broken bones).

Not a PG instructor so others may have better knowledge, but more time at low speed, close to the ground… seems like a not so good idea?

Thoughts?

Jana’s absolutely right about there being thermals on both approaches.  There’s just more loose dust on the parking lot side because cars are driving over it.  When I was actively grading the undershoot of the HG side of the LZ, we had some really magnificent dust devils going right up the training hill.

I also agree with Jerome that airspeed has nothing to do with the approach type of DBF or figure-8.

It has a *lot* to do with why we separate the patterns, though. Relatively speaking, PGs are slow, HGs are fast.  We try to keep them separate so HGs don’t overtake PGs, and PGs don’t block HGs.

The other reason for flying an approach pattern is so that people will know your intentions.  An approach is not just flying around randomly until it looks like you’ll impact close to the spot you desire.  We’re a busy site. Other people need to be able to predict where you’re going to go, and have a safe alternative.

My glider is fluoro red, white, fluoro orange.  It’s bright, and  doesn’t blend in very well.  The last three PGs that have cut me off in the HG approach all said the same thing: “I didn’t see you.”  All three episodes had me losing my altitude off the southeast corner of the LZ before attempting a DBF approach.  I have to assume either they’re not looking, or they don’t recognize the fact that I’m in the pattern.  Which may be why I find it particularly annoying, because I do follow a pattern.

One thing I don’t understand is why so many people want to lose altitude downwind of the LZ.  That’s just silly. I see PGs dragging  in low from the east all the freaking time.  Why?

Is there some reason not to stay over the lift-generating hill and conserve altitude until upwind/crosswind from the LZ?

Here’s my recommendations:

Blow off your excess altitude crosswind or upwind of the LZ, so you don’t run the risk of not being able to penetrate to the LZ.  Get your initial point altitude for a DBF approach approximately right, fly that making corrections as needed. If you’re still too high, sure, a couple of figure-8s may be necessary, but you should be trying to minimize the time you spend in the low approach area.

Here’s an approximate example of what the figure 8 PG approach looks like from the ground. This is Stephen landing with a tandem:

Sometimes as I come into the pattern still up high, I go past the white fence if I’m a safe distance above the power lines, and sometimes I go a little bit past the house while making my turn if I don’t see anyone coming in to land. It’s not always perfect, but I mostly try to keep it between the white fence and house, in front of all the obstacles. I usually make my final approach from the house to the cone (if nobody is in the way), and I try to be as low as the big pine tree, sometimes a few feet lower, before I head toward the grass. That gets me close to the PG cone pretty much every time, with a good flare and soft landing.

It is a shame that something so basic to aviation safety as approach patterns requires so much debate.  Accident investigations try to determine why an accident happened so future ones can be prevented.  The “problem” with PG pilots cutting off HG pilots on final or PG kiting in the LZ isn’t the approaches or the kiting.  They are the result of the problem.  The “problem” is VFR pilots not following the two basic tenets of VFR: following established procedures and see and avoid.  I have been on final probably 20 seconds behind Tim, his glider is so bright it jumps out at you.  For 3 PG pilots to cut Tim off is astonishing. Equally astonishing is the two PG mid airing over Marshall some months back.  PGs are bright and slow moving.  Tim is bright and faster moving.  All should be easy to identify.  See and avoid.

The reason the PGs caused so much of an issue at Redlands airport was they did not follow the established procedure of the local traffic pattern.  No pilot can legally go to an uncontrolled airport and just decide not to follow the established pattern that is published in the AFD.  That is a good way to get a letter of investigation from the FAA.  If a CFI allowed a student to do that he would probably get his CFI suspended. (I understand the FAA has no jurisdiction over us, unlike certificated pilots)

While there are egregious HG pilots out, the current issues seem to be predominantly PG related.  Because of that, let us try to determine why these PG pilots are operating unsafely.  If a PG pilot cuts off a HG pilot on final or gets hit while kiting likely both pilots will be equally dead or injured so it is in all of our interests to make sure everyone is operating safely.

We, the club, need to determine why this portion of the PG community is operating unsafely and try to change the root cause so that everyone is safer.

An analysis of PG instruction vs HG instruction may be a good place to start as safety habits are predominantly gained while learning. I have experience as a student in helicopters, airplanes, and HG, and as an instructor and instrument instructor in helicopters, so I have experience from both sides.  There are definite differences in the instructional environment between HG and PG.

If the club wants to solve this issue and have everyone operate in a safer environment, then we should try to determine the root cause and work together to change it.

Lots to read here and good stuff. Just want to add that I experienced a little LZ congestion with a PG last Friday. The PG landed very close to the cone we HG pilots aim for. I tried to loiter to give him time to clear, but he was slow and I had to come in. Ended up landing less than 10 yards from him. It all ended well, but I did express my annoyance with choice of landing spots. He was apologetic and asked where he was supposed to go. I asked if he was new and he said this was his first time at our site. I personally can’t imagine flying a new site and not finding out how things work, especially a place as busy as AJX, but that was his story.

If suppose its possible to miss the notices on the board, not check the website and make assumptions on how things run, so if you’re hosting a newby or see someone new, you might politely ask them if they’re familiar with our site. Assumptions and lais·sez-faire attitudes can ruin your day.