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Tim WardGeneral Member
Might have visitors that usually fly Elsinore, though.
Tim WardGeneral MemberI wasn’t there for part of this story, so I can’t vouch for all of it. Dave Childs was, though, so he can chime in and tell me how much I’m exaggerating.
So, sometime after the earth had cooled enough that playing “the floor is lava” was only a game, Kenny, Dave and I were flying Little Mountain. Little Mountain was right off the freeway, so we’d often get wuffos that saw us flying and doubled back to come and watch.
This day, some wuffos followed us up the road to the top to watch us launch. Kenny thought it would be funny if they got to see somebody launch “for the first time.” I was youngest, so I got volunteered for the role.
Dave had recently bought a new Eipper Flexi-Flier, and in those days, Eipper would ship a training manual of eight or ten pages stapled together to help the new customer learn to fly the glider. I was given this to “study”, and Kenny and Dave helped me set up my glider, loudly giving me advice and encouraging me. I tried to maintain the attitude of a possibly naïve, but cautiously optimistic student.
It was late afternoon, and the wind had picked up enough to be soarable. Soarable, at that time and place and with that equipment, was ridge soaring 25 to 50 feet over the top, maybe a little less if it lulled.
Kenny and Dave made sure I was strapped in, helped me over to the launch and threw me off, complete with the training manual in hand.
So I began to fly back and forth, and when I’d come back over launch, Kenny and Dave would shout up helpful information like “Page 8! Look at Page 8 for your turns!” Me being a good student, I would obligingly riffle through the manual and attempt to study it a little more during the next pass.
I must not have been a very good student, because they always had something to complain about every time I came by.
Now, I had fully intended to give Dave back his instruction book at the bottom, but fate, or maybe a bad staple, took a hand, and as I came back over launch most of the manual was whipped out of my hand by the wind. Damn.
On the other hand, this was way too good an opportunity to pass up, so I screamed “Omigod! How do I get down!”
This is the part I can’t vouch for, but Kenny and Dave swore to me that when the manual departed, and I yelled, the wuffos absolutely blanched.
At this point, (so I’m told), Kenny and Dave say something like, “Well, nothing we can do for him now, I guess we’ll go fly.”
And they did.
I wonder from time to time if the wuffo was actually that gullible, and tells a story about how he saw some poor soul fly a hang glider for the first time and couldn’t get down. If there is, it’s Kenny’s fault.
Tim WardGeneral MemberI had fun with Kenny for a long time. He and Dave Childs used to pick me up to go flying before I had a driver’s license.
Old and bold.
Tim WardGeneral MemberAnyone else?
Gene says he’ll give a ride to the 350 for PGs that come out and work.
The 350 is on Cross-country Ranch property, not National Forest, so that would be legal.
Tim WardGeneral MemberI don’t think that forecast takes smoke into account.
I’ve seen lots of days where the wind gram overcalls the day. Usually when it’s good, it will be great visibility over the valley.
Tim WardGeneral MemberWhew. At a loss for words.
I’m sorry to hear it. Can’t imagine there’s anyone who ever met Juanita who isn’t sorry to hear it.
Tim WardGeneral MemberThe sink on the south side has a filter on it.
We’re in the same aquifer as Arrowhead bottled water gets its spring water from. Though I understand they dilute what they get down with tap water.
Tim WardGeneral MemberYep, that was it.
The 4 inch main pipe broke, and there was no watering for three or four days during a very hot segment.
Got it back together, it ran for a week or so, then it broke again, in a different spot, just before the heat wave.
I’ve fixed the pipes again, and we are watering, but the damage is done. I felt like it was doing pretty well up until the first break.
There’s now an automatic shutoff if any of the stations flow too much water. I’d still have to fix it, but at least we won’t lose the water.
The next project is a pressure relief valve that should eliminate any water hammer, which is what is suspected to cause the pipe breaks.
I still need to backfill the holes dug to fix the pipe. If anyone’s feeling like a little manual labor, walk over where the piles of dirt are and either throw the big rocks over the side, so they don’t go back in the hole, or throw some dirt in the hole with a shovel.
Once the dirt is up to the level of the pipes, I can use Gracie to fill in the holes without much chance of breaking the pipe.
Tim WardGeneral MemberBo, your primary argument seems to be that an P2 is a P2 is a P2. If this is so, then the local/visiting status of an accident pilot should be immaterial. And if pilots with higher ratings are also having incidents, this wouldn’t seem to bode well for H2s in those same conditions.
The historical basis of the signoff is that Crestline/Marshall used to be an H2 site (this was pre-PG). And it certainly can be. It can be a wonderful resource for novice pilots to get some airtime and become not-so-novice pilots.
The problem was that freshly-minted H2s would come and get into various problems. One memorable one, which sort of brought things to a head, was one that crashed into the tower by launch. Fortunately, it wasn’t a fatality, but it did break some antennas. This was also before Rob started keeping track of incidents with red dots and yellow dots, so it’s not in that database.
So we changed to H3, with an H2 signoff, to try to cut down on unsupervised flights by pilots with — not so much a lack of skill — but a lack of judgement. The five approaches into the LZ was added when we moved to the current LZ from Pinecrest, mostly because of overshoots, but partially to help with separation of slow from fast traffic, as PGs were starting to be a thing.
The time of day restriction originally only applied during Daylight Savings Time. In the winter, the sun was generally low enough that conditions weren’t that strong.
Tim WardGeneral MemberAlex:
The original scheme , as I recall it, was for PGs to fly the mirror image of the HG approach.
In both approaches, during the middle of the day, there can be significant lift, so by the time you get to where you’d like to make your turn on to base, you’re a high. So sometimes it would be necessary to fly a small number of figure 8s instead of just a base leg. On the HG side, one day I had to go out and start the approach over again from a lower altitude twice.
Somehow, in the PG pattern this has morphed into only doing figure 8s in the area defined by the Cross-Country Ranch. I don’t fly PGs, so I can’t say whether this is easy or hard. I do think if there was some initial control point upwind and away from the hill that was routinely rounded before going back downwind to do any remaining figure 8s then pilots wouldn’t come in as low over the trees. I’ve watch Dusty make approaches like this any number of times.
Tim WardGeneral MemberThe vast majority of airports don’t have a tower. There may be a CTAF to announce your presence and intentions, but there’s no requirement to have a radio or use one if you have it, and making an announcement doesn’t give you any sort of right-of-way.
But they do have traffic patterns.
The reason for the traffic pattern is so that people are in predictable places, even in the absence of a tower or a radio announcement.
It’s not obvious to me how turns keep you from seeing other traffic, especially from vehicles with as unobstructed a view as hang gliders and paragliders.
I suspect that in many cases, PGs just aren’t looking for/don’t recognize the consequences of a hang glider descending on the southeast corner of the LZ. That guy that’s “way out there” and “not a factor” will shortly be going downwind at above average speeds. That’s not to spite you. That’s the accepted pattern.
I’d also like to point out that the landing pattern is not the place to extend your flight duration. This is true for both HGs that circle directly over the northeast corner of the LZ instead of losing altitude somewhere near the southeast corner as well as the PGs that feel duty-bound to eke every last second of flight out of the light lift over the HG training hill. Land. Getting vertical separation from other people so you’re not landing at the same time is probably another conversation, but that should have been done earlier.
Tim WardGeneral MemberYou can fly for 30 minutes after sunset.
You should have a light visible for 3 miles for flying in the half-hour after official sunset, though.
LED strobes are available that would suit.
103.11 Daylight operations.
(a) No person may operate an ultralight vehicle except between the hours of sunrise and sunset.(b) Notwithstanding paragraph (a) of this section, ultralight vehicles may be operated during the twilight periods 30 minutes before official sunrise and 30 minutes after official sunset or, in Alaska, during the period of civil twilight as defined in the Air Almanac, if:
(1) The vehicle is equipped with an operating anticollision light visible for at least 3 statute miles; and
(2) All operations are conducted in uncontrolled airspace.
Assuming for plausible deniabiltity that they had an anticollision light and were going to be top landing, they had 13 minutes of legal flight available.
Tim WardGeneral MemberJana’s absolutely right about there being thermals on both approaches. There’s just more loose dust on the parking lot side because cars are driving over it. When I was actively grading the undershoot of the HG side of the LZ, we had some really magnificent dust devils going right up the training hill.
I also agree with Jerome that airspeed has nothing to do with the approach type of DBF or figure-8.
It has a *lot* to do with why we separate the patterns, though. Relatively speaking, PGs are slow, HGs are fast. We try to keep them separate so HGs don’t overtake PGs, and PGs don’t block HGs.
The other reason for flying an approach pattern is so that people will know your intentions. An approach is not just flying around randomly until it looks like you’ll impact close to the spot you desire. We’re a busy site. Other people need to be able to predict where you’re going to go, and have a safe alternative.
My glider is fluoro red, white, fluoro orange. It’s bright, and doesn’t blend in very well. The last three PGs that have cut me off in the HG approach all said the same thing: “I didn’t see you.” All three episodes had me losing my altitude off the southeast corner of the LZ before attempting a DBF approach. I have to assume either they’re not looking, or they don’t recognize the fact that I’m in the pattern. Which may be why I find it particularly annoying, because I do follow a pattern.
One thing I don’t understand is why so many people want to lose altitude downwind of the LZ. That’s just silly. I see PGs dragging in low from the east all the freaking time. Why?
Is there some reason not to stay over the lift-generating hill and conserve altitude until upwind/crosswind from the LZ?
Here’s my recommendations:
Blow off your excess altitude crosswind or upwind of the LZ, so you don’t run the risk of not being able to penetrate to the LZ. Get your initial point altitude for a DBF approach approximately right, fly that making corrections as needed. If you’re still too high, sure, a couple of figure-8s may be necessary, but you should be trying to minimize the time you spend in the low approach area.
Tim WardGeneral MemberWe used to fly standard Rogallos off Crestline. Generally we landed somewhere along Devil’s Canyon Road. So modern equipment should make it out to AJX no problem.
The briefing I give to H2s is:
If you get lower than the ridge, consider going to the Billboard. If you’re lower than the houses by the house thermal, definitely go to the Billboard.
Never try to cross directly to Marshall. Marshall is well rounded, so while you won’t hit a well-defined rotor, you will have sink in the area behind it out to about the middle of the canyon or a little further. Think of it like a very large, very oddly shaped airfoil: the air wants to stick to the surface, so it goes up on the front side, and down on the back.
So if you don’t clear Marshall, and try to sneak around, you will be in sink the entire way. There’s a little bit of a venturi wind effect at the end if you’re below the top, too.
Instead, stay as tight along the back ridge as you reasonably/comfortably can. Even if you don’t climb back there, the air, in general, is going to be going up, and extending your glide.
Go down to the Billboard. There’s a ridge there that points toward the powerplant. If you’re at or below 4800 feet, head out to Marshall.
Fly along that ridge parallel to the big tubes. Generally a little to the left of the big tubes is where I’ve found the best lift. Bearing in mind that there can be some venturi effect in the mouth of the canyon, when you can clear Last Chance or Regionals, do so.
The bailout isn’t very good, but it’s the closest thing to landable terrain in the canyon. Figure on a crosswind uphill landing. There’s a steep dropoff next to the road. It’s fairly flat, though pretty bushy, next to the edge, but it gets steeper and steeper the higher you go.
More advice, I can’t give, because I’ve never landed there, only picked people up. But I think I’d try to set up diagonally, to try to get some headwind component and a shallower path up the hill.
I think it’s better to leave Crestline a little early and have some altitude to work with when you arrive at Marshall. Yes, it’s possible to get up from very low in the canyon, but I don’t think the risk is worth the reward.
June 20, 2020 at 1:10 PM in reply to: Incident Report: PG Crash at Power Station, June 18, 2020 #9224Tim WardGeneral MemberWell, we’ve had one undershoot the bailout, and one overshoot the bailout.
I guess, on average, we’re doing well.
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