Home Forums Events & Projects Shade Structure Design Selection – Time to Vote!

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  • #12388

    The time has finally come! We have 6 shade structure rebuild design options for you to choose from. Please take a minute to look through them all, think about their design, function, and overall cost – and vote! Ballots will be emailed out to all current General Members. Keep an eye out for them and check your spam/junk in case you don’t see it. The vote will run for 2 weeks, ending on May 26 @ 15:00.

    If you check the “Other” option on the ballot and have a better idea, feel free to post it here in this thread. Please don’t post ideas unless you have accompanying costs to go with.

    Note: All of these design options will require additional donations to pull off. The club will need to continue fundraising efforts regardless of which option is chosen, but hopefully this vote will suss out what will make the most people happy.

    • Option 1View Details
      Baja Carports, No Solar, All Steel, 36’x90′, Full Install – $63k
    • Option 2 View Details
      36’x90′ Structure, Steel Columns, Observation Deck, Wood Framing, Full Install – $90k
    • Option 3View Details
      36’x80′ Structure, Steel Columns, Concrete Walls, Curved Wood Framing, 70% Solid Roof, 30% Shade Cloth Roof, Full Install – $58k
    • Option 4View Details
      Same as Option 3 Structure, except with Concrete Columns, Full Install – $55k; Phased Construction, Phase 1 Columns and Walls Install – $19k; Remaining Phases Upon Funding
    • Option 5View Details
      Western Steel 32’x90′ All Steel Structure Kit ($35k Kit, $19k foundations, $21k installation) – $75k
    • Option 6View Details
      Allied Steel 30’x90′ All Steel Structure Kit ($34k Kit, $19k foundations, $21k installation) – $74k
    • Option 7 (write-in)View Details

    $38,509 Steel Structure, 10’ slope to 15’, can hold some weight on roof $2,000 to $4,000      Foundation, $620 Electrification (safety power outlets + wiring prepared for lights) Total cost: $41,129 to $43,129.

    Thanks for your continued support. If you have any questions, please send them to president@crestlinesoaring.org.

    #12389

    Options 1, 5 and 6 are for open steel structures.

    Option 2 is a similar open structure with steel columns and wood framing and optional observation deck above.

    Options 3 and 4 are steel or concrete columns and foundations with curved wood beam and plank  roof, also fabric shade infill.  Shade fabrics for sun cover could be completed right away until there are funds to do more.  The solid roof and walls for interior space could come after, and a bathroom or 2 would be welcome.

     

    #12397
    Jerome Daoust
    General Member
    CSS Instructor

    Thank you for explaining that Jai Pal. I voted, but also sharing my preference here…

    I voted #1, preferring all steel: No wood to rot, concrete walls/columns to crack, or fabric to fray. Steel can rust/corrode, but lasts longer when protected by paint or has rust inhibitors (galvanized).
    Likely any project is too late for shade in the next couple months, so may as well pick the best long-term solution and be cost effective. Also, the flat/sloped roof will lend itself well to solar panels if we desire that.

    Happy voting, may your favorite be the winner.

    #12429

    I like option 5. With membership doing install with their collective expertise, this won’t break our bank. $34K plus more like $15K to erect. Simple, durable.

    #12437

    Author name changed by request.

    ————-

    Thank you all for the work you’ve done to get us these options!

    I have a few questions:

    1. Have the contractors stated they can traverse the dirt road with all their equipment to get to the building site? Such as a concrete short load truck, crane, etc?

    2. Can we see the details of the contracts? I’m curious if the contractor is responsible for all permits, and if they misjudge that if they are liable for the cost overruns, not the club? And are they licensed, bonded, and insured? Note we actually need to verify if they are, not take their word for it, else we don’t get the legal protections as I understand.

    3. Options 5 & 6 are interesting to me, but I can’t judge them without an installation and permit  estimate. But I acknowledge that would take extra time, and you’ve all put time into this already. I like these options, which is why I’m asking. I’m even somewhat ok with waiting, saving up more money, and building a large permanent structure that will have a decent total cost of ownership. We could rig up a temporary shade in the meantime. I hope to understand the installation details in order to consider these options. For example, is a full trench foundation indeed needed? Will earthquake codes require extra since the building is at the edge of a slope, next to a parking lot where people are, etc? Can the delivery truck handle the dirt road to get to the building site?

    4. For options 5 & 6, has the model in the PDF file that is on page 11 been considered? Because I’m wondering if a full trench foundation can be skipped with that type of model and instead 6 deep holes bored. But can the equipment to bore it make it on site? Would the bores address any potential code concerns about earthquakes, etc?

    5. While I like the idea of option #2’s observation deck, will it really be used that much? What does the extra height provide when there’s little obstruction to the views when on the ground? I see extra cost and liability, for a deck with no shade, which is why I’m curious about this option.

    6. Option #3 sure looks beautiful, but does it provide enough shade for a crowd outside?

    7. What is the expected lifespan of option #3’s fabric roof? I understand Jerome’s position on it, and I’m also concerned about total cost of ownership over the long term. I believe we should build something once that will last longer than all of us.

    8. What are the advantages / disadvantages of deciding how we will pay for the new structure before deciding on what structure? Because it’s easy to choose something nice / expensive when the cost is to be covered by voluntary donations, whereas a mandatory assessment to all members would likely cause a different decision process I figure.

    9. Has a loan been considered, combined with a mandatory assessment for all members? Interests rates are low (for traditional loans). I believe this approach could help us spread the cost over time, however I think a 10 year loan should be the maximum term.

    These are all the things I could think of.

    Again, thank you for the efforts made to get this project to this point. I’m sure I speak for everybody when I say I know it took some time, and for that I’m grateful!

    #12460

    Answers to questions from anonymous above:

    from Stan, and Jai Pal:

    Stan:  No statements.

    2. Their is nothing other than already shared.

    3.  No permits are required.

    4.  [Need JP to answer.]

    5. No answer.

    6. No answer.

    7.  [Need JP to answer.]

    8.  We are not required mandatory contributions.  We will build the chosen option once the funds have been amassed.  Feel free to do whatever fundraising you would like, but nothing mandatory will be imposed.

    9. We will get a loan for this.  The structure will be built only when sufficient funds are amassed.  We cannot afford to pay interest, especially with out low membership rates.

    Jai Pal
    4. Full tied foundation pads and footings are required, and not included in the prices quoted. Piles will NOT be used due to additional Geotechnical requirements.

    6. Options 3 & 4 provide 800 sq ft interior space and 2100 sq ft open covered exterior space. Currently (prior to roofs/shade flying away) there is container space of 120sq ft and approximately 400 sq ft of outdoor covered space.

    7. Cost benefit analysis needed. Generally teflon coated canvas can last 25 years or more. See Haji Airport Saudi Arabia and Denver Airport.  Buy cheap and replace more often or buy expensive and replace less often.

    PS. #5, Observation deck is designed and engineered for shade covering. A roof deck would afford views and additional space for pilots and the public hang out away from pilot areas below.  Code 42″ height railings go all around. Deck gives 1500 sq ft covered/shaded space at minimal cost. (36×90+20×75). 4,740 sq ft covered area for $90k =  $19 per square foot.

    I like #3 and #4 – beauty, function, longevity

    Regarding #1, turnkey complete, #5 & #6, each are steel kits installed on new foundations

    #12461

    From another member who is unable to post on this forum:

    “The foundation for the steel structure quoted by Allied, and one that was omitted, Empire based in San Diego, IMHO was the lowest and best option with 30’ spacing on posts is 12” X 30” sauna tube concrete footing, called out by their company engineering , to California building code standard. Jai pal Khalsa is incorrect about the cost and design of the foundation. It’s nowhere near the > $20K he claims it would cost for the CSS to excavate and pour 8 -10 post base footings. A 10 yard truck is $1200 , short load mix on-site is $120/yard times around 1 yard per footing.”

    #12462

    There was typo there from the copying, I assume.

     

    9. We will get a loan for this.  The structure will be built only when sufficient funds are amassed.  We cannot afford to pay interest, especially with out low membership rates.

     

    This should be “We will NOT get a loan.”

     

     

    #12466

    Have you guys looked into applying for a grant from the Foundation For Free Flight to help with this project?

    https://www.foundationforfreeflight.org/getagrant.html

    #12467

    Yes. I wrote a draft grant back in March and I will not submit the final grant until we have decided on the design. The FFF will MAYBE match half of what we’ve raised (contrary to a rumor that they already stated they were committed to doubling our fundraising effort) so the more we raise ourselves, the more funding from them that might be available.
    “Promises” or “unnamed potential investors” don’t count towards cash raised. Only money in the bank will be counted. So far that’s around $12,000

    #12474

    updated

    #12492
    Alan Crouse
    General Member

    Is option 1 a “Fully installed” version of options 5 and 6?

    Thank you,

    Alan

    #12500

    Yes

    #12509
    Alan Crouse
    General Member

    So for any practical purpose we have 3 design options in this poll:

    1) Open metal structure (options 1, 5, 6).  Price something more than the $35K for material, but with a cap at 63K;

    2) Steel structure with observation deck (option 2).  Price cap at $90K;

    3) Curving structure with more enclosed area (options 3, 4).  Price $55K  – $58K depending on material and phasing.

    If we could narrow to one design, that would be a good first step.  Price difference at this stage is only significant between the decked and non-decked options.

    My 2 cents…

    Thank you,

    Alan

    #12512

    Alan,

    Yes, you are correct, except 5 & 6 are at $74k and $75k materials and installation versus $63k for Bajacarports #1

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